LISTEN to the Mindwhirl Marketing Podcast Ep 14 – NLP for Business with Martin Messier of DailyNLP
WATCH The Mindwhirl Marketing Podcast Ep 14 – NLP for Business with Martin Messier of DailyNLP
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➡️ Martin Messier of DailyNLP
Podcast Transcript
Mike Miller 00:00
Okay, all right!
Mike Miller 00:07
All right, welcome to Mindwhirl Marketing podcast, your source for B2B business building information, where we talk sales and marketing and give you the insider secrets you need to know to grow your business. We want to help you attract leads and sales and show you how to align sales marketing, so you get more sales faster with less cost. And to that end, we have a very special guest with us today. It’s Martin Messier a from dailyNLP. Who is a an exceptional NLP coach, an amazing guy and Shelly I recently took a course a group modeling workshop with Martin, and it was the best course I’ve ever taken.
Shelly Miller 00:53
Me too.
Mike Miller 00:54
And we can’t say enough about you, Martin. It’s just an exceptional course.
Martin Messier 01:00
You’re making me blush guys.
Mike Miller 01:03
The truth is, I I’ve never experienced the results that I experienced with your course before anywhere. And we’ll get into it later. But first, I wanted to you know, you’re you’re all about NLP, which is neuro-linguistic programming. And it’s changed our lives.
Shelly Miller 01:24
Definitely has.
Mike Miller 01:25
And we have our beliefs about why and how it changed our lives. But we wanted to hear it from the expert, you know, like, what is NLP? What can you do with it, that kind of stuff? And basically, you know, Richard Bandler said once that NLP is the science of success. But how would you describe NLP? You know, what is it?
Martin Messier 01:48
Yeah, see, the thing is, when we get into the science of success, description type, then that’s when we start mistaking NLP with you know, Psycho Cybernetics, or Napoleon Hill’s material and all that. So I think to me, it’s a to me it’s a it’s a big mistake. It’s a great selling point, maybe, but I think it all it does is mislead people. And the way I understand NLP today is NLP is a methodology and a code to be able to reverse engineer human behavior. And particularly its outstanding human behaviors. So whenever you see someone who has a who’s particularly adept at a skill, and you can’t quite figure out how to do it. Well, NLP is the discipline that’s going to enable you to figure that out. So it’s got two pieces. First is the methodology. And that’s the methodology that you guys went through when you participated in the modeling workshop. And it’s got a code. And the code is kind of like this notation. And the analogy I often use is that a music notation. So every area of life has an alphabet. And in the case of human behavior, and human thinking, which is, you know, where all the stuff is engineered. There’s a particular alphabet to it, which is sensory, which is values, proclivity beliefs, and all that. And once you understand that alphabet, you’re able to annotate and then transfer behaviors and thought patterns to other people, just like, you know, you could add don’t take Mozart’s pieces, and then enable other people to play it if they can read that particular alphabet. So that’s how I described NLP.
Shelly Miller 03:36
Very good.
Mike Miller 03:37
Yeah. Okay. So um, so essentially, then you’re able to pick up skills that other people have, and apply them to your life. If you have that code that alphabet.
Martin Messier 03:52
Yes, well, the two things, it’s the code and the methodology because as you guys saw, as you went through the process, there’s a very distinct, very scientific and by scientific, I mean, very step by step, and anybody can do it and falsify it and verify whether it works or not. So step one, you do this step two, you do that step three, you do that. So once you’ve got that the method and the alphabet, that’s when you’re truly able to absorb and then replicate and codify what’s going on.
Shelly Miller 04:21
Okay, so that explains why it was so powerful. It wasn’t, you know, I’ve had people say, Well, you were just rewriting or, you know, this text, but it’s, it’s the methodology. That’s the steps that you’re taking.
Martin Messier 04:34
Yes, absolutely.
Mike Miller 04:36
Okay. Well, so what interested you in NLP, you know, how did you get started in this because…
Martin Messier 04:43
Well, as so many people, I was sitting home at night and an infomercial came on. And the tall guy with big teeth was talking. Yeah, and yet, so, Tony Robbins was kind of my gateway drug into NLP as as with many people, I went through his full curriculum. And then after doing that, I just felt like I had to dig deeper. So NLP was obviously the root. And so I found NLP training data that suited me bass and it was with Rex Sikes over in Wisconsin. So in 2001, I went over to Wisconsin, full 10 day immersion training with with racks and in my journey ever since.
Mike Miller 05:30
Okay, yes, that’s, that’s amazing. So, um, you know, a 10 day immersion classes is a big commitment. No, so is that what you would recommend to people to learn it?
Martin Messier 05:46
Well, what I’d say is that today a, I’d say that most commonplace NLP trainings delve go be focused on, it’s like, what I’d say is they don’t really train you and NLP, and a modeling piece, which is the really important part of it. So much as in the models that NLP work has produced. So nowadays, it really depends. I mean, if you’re interested in all of the therapeutic modalities, everything that was derived from Milton Erickson from Virginia Satir from Gestalt therapy, and Fritz Perls, then these immersion trainings are fantastic, because you’re going to be learning these these modules. Another reason if you’re able to spend a time with immersion training is that you’re really going to delete the outside world and delve into all this stuff and integrate it. So it’s kind of a, it’s a great learning vacation, if you’re if you’re able to, to afford the time. And the money that’s associated with with doing that. With that said, I’m really today more of a fan of practical in the real world approaches to learning it kind of like what we did, where you get a, you get a practice that you have to do every single day. And then that’s matched against your experience in the real world. And it allows you to integrate within that world because oftentimes, one of the problems that I see is that you go into these retreats or seminars, and everything that you learn seems to work perfectly within that little bubble within that context. And then you leave the bubble, and you’re just like, why doesn’t this work?
Shelly Miller 07:28
Yes
Martin Messier 07:29
Like a lot of the report techniques that I don’t know if you guys want to jump in and comment on that?
Shelly Miller 07:34
Well, that for me, that’s the second. That’s the second reason, then the second answer for me why it works. So well. I got to apply it immediately. So you know, we write every day for ourselves and our clients. So, you know, did the homework in the evenings woke up the next morning, we’re writing articles. And it was just so powerful for me that and that’s why because I’ve taken there, they seem more clinical, when I go into a classroom, and we’re just writing, hey, write something about this or do this and I can’t apply it to the work I’m doing now. So that also explains it, because my writing has completely changed. And it’s and it’s because that’s I think that’s the main reason, the homework, then wake up and I’m applying it right then. So
Mike Miller 08:18
it just made everything so much easier. You know, we didn’t have we weren’t struggling with the coming up with ideas or hooks or messages or things to titillate, you know, ways to, to engage people. It just came naturally. And I don’t know where it came from, which makes it kind of like mystical.
Shelly Miller 08:48
It does seem mystical.
Mike Miller 08:49
Yeah. But, but I know it’s not, you know, there’s nothing special or fancy about it. It’s just the way it works. But following your your pattern and your advice, I mean, we were able to basically achieve amazing results from, from the things that we’ve written as a result of taking your class. So
Shelly Miller 09:16
in the format that you have it I like I like what you just said, and you know, in the you can apply it into your day to day. So it was I I’ve always heard about Tony in the immersion and, you know, seminars and I really love Tony, we’ve listened to Tony for years, and I’ve always thought, well cool, but you know, and I can’t see the benefit of, you know, the outside world going away. But um, I think I got a bigger benefit. It was the first time I’ve ever had anything where I got to apply it immediately.
Mike Miller 09:47
Yeah, it made the biggest difference. Exactly. Exactly. Um, so let me ask you, you know, we’ve talked around it a little bit so what can you do with NLP, like, what are the benefits? What do you get? You know, like, I know what I’ve gotten, but for someone listening, what can they expect?
Martin Messier 10:10
Well, I’ll give you a couple concrete examples. And I think it’s gonna make sense to, to to our audience. And let’s say for instance, I’ll give a very, very specific one very apparently, you know, mundane thing. Let’s say you have someone who knows how to spell incredibly well, and you don’t, there’s, there’s a specific pattern to how they accomplish that there’s something that they do in their mind, and they’re thinking, and you’re probably doing something completely different. So with NLP, what you can do is through dialogue with the person who’s an outstanding speller, you’re able to elicit specifically how they do what they do, and then adopt that same behavior and strategy and be able to produce it yourself. In the case of what we modeled, for instance, with copywriting. Well, what you can do is dive into the work of an outstanding copywriter and be able to extract yourself the main patterns that they use consistently, that deliver and produce results for them. In my case, right now, I’m conducting a day trading modeling project where a modeling an outstanding day trader, and the great thing about it is that instead of studying a whole lot of material about the market, I’m doing it bottom up inside the market and deriving the generalizations from my actual practice. So whereas in my little trading group, there are some people who’ve been, you know, day trading for about two years, I’m getting better performance than them after three months, just by employing NLP, you can use it for public speaking. I remember about 20 years ago, I was a horrible, horrible public speaker, both in stumbling in my words, and being shy and not really knowing how to engage people. And I was in a Toastmasters group, and I spent months in it. And you know, I was really shy. And after going to, Tony, well, I just modeled Tony. And when I got back to Toastmasters, within a week, I was done. I mean, I said, Bye, guys. You know, you guys have fun here, I’m done with this, I started making money with public speaking. So, you know, whatever. It’s what I call modeling is the ing to rule all the ings. So it’s like, it’s one ing to rule them all. So whether it’s public speaking day trading, copywriting, whatever it is, whatever ing that you’re after modeling will help you get it faster, and you’ll be a lot better at it.
Mike Miller 12:46
Wow, yeah. So so there’s the classic therapeutic uses of NLP, which really, you know, we don’t get into, but there’s also the the real life aspects that uses of it that it can enhance every aspect of your life is
Martin Messier 13:07
Absolutely, it’s just, it’s just at the beginning, the thing that created this big confusion is that the founders of NLP were like, Huh, there’s these therapists who can do these amazing things. Let’s model them. So that was the first modeling project. And all of a sudden, that became the whole enchilada, but truly, it’s just they figured out the structure of therapeutic communication. But then there’s so much more, you know, why are we just limiting ourselves to that little world when there’s all of these playgrounds that we can go in and, and, and have fun and learn?
Shelly Miller 13:39
So true? I mean, I remember when Michael first brought up NLP we started looking at training. It was all that way. And I I had a hard time grasping, not only how would I apply that in my life, but you know, I mean, I thought the stories are great. And the NLP stories, I might sound silly, but I could listen to Richard Bandler forever. But, you know, he’s hilarious entertaining and so that was some of our best Saturday evenings, quite honestly. But, um, I was thinking, you know, how would I apply that to me? You know, I love that he tried to convince somebody that that thought he was Jesus that well I brought you across let’s just, I mean, these stories just blew my mind but I’m going well how can I apply this you know, how can this work for me?
Mike Miller 14:27
Right,
Shelly Miller 14:27
Very well put it that that is that is the beauty of NLP and I honestly even after 15 years, I didn’t fully understand it that way. And I feel like I’ve I’ve know quite a bit about it until I take your course. I because I saw it immediately.
Shelly Miller 14:44
The changes in me
Mike Miller 14:46
In action.
Shelly Miller 14:46
Yes, and it was it’s been amazing. So
Mike Miller 14:50
yes, exactly.
Martin Messier 14:51
What and your you guys escaped just very quickly, Mike. The compliment is that you since you experienced it at the copywriting level and you have had already the therapeutic level, then you can rise to a meta level where you can truly see how you know how it happens.
Shelly Miller 15:06
Yes, meta level. There you go.
Mike Miller 15:09
Yeah, exactly. And that was the thing. So we’re writing all day long every day. And we’ve taken copywriting course after copywriting course after copywriting course trying to hone our craft, and that we haven’t just done this in a year. This is like 20 years.
Shelly Miller 15:26
Yeah.
Mike Miller 15:26
And so when we took your course, I thought that, you know, I would upskill a little bit, you know, I would learn a little bit. But I’ve gone from a decent copywriter to what I believe is like, maybe it’s just ego.
Shelly Miller 15:47
I agree, I really do.
Mike Miller 15:49
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I could write a control for like, boardroom are one of the top, you know, direct marketing, direct response marketing companies. I feel like I, you know, I’m, I’m at a level. Like, somehow I took off like a rocket ship. And it was just because I did the work that you said, do this.
Shelly Miller 16:12
Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Messier 16:13
I mean, I mean, I think I think you guys can really take the credit for this. Because mileage definitely varies you, you really get out what you invest in it, and you put into work. And that’s, that’s how you got to where you are so. So very much kudos to you.
Mike Miller 16:28
Yeah, well, I appreciate it. But everybody in the in the class got exceptional results as well. So, I mean, it, it works to us. Exactly. So, um, like, just, I think we covered what you can do with an LP, but in a business context, you know, so we’ve got copywriting. But how else can it help us in a business context?
Martin Messier 16:57
Well, the thing is that there’s all these tiny little skills that make a difference, you know, when you start growing a company, for instance, and you need to start delegating work. I mean, just delegating, that’s, that’s a skill. And clearly, based on what you can read on forums, there are some people who aren’t good at it, both from the standpoint of impetus and also how to do it, managing running meetings, I mean, all of these tiny little skills that that are part of the business life, you can you can tap into with modeling and become very, very proficient at it very, very rapidly. So what if you’re in business everything within that spectrum can be can be tapped into for that telemarketing friend says that’d be another great example. I mean, you can really level up using modeling level up your company I’m working on a product right now on an offering for businesses that targets exactly that how you can leverage you can tap into the the sales DNA of your company to upscale yourself team very quickly, because I think all these companies, they bring in outside sales trainers, and it’s a mistake, because if you have one or two or three really great performers within your company, while you have everything that you need within to be able to uplevel everybody Mm hmm.
Mike Miller 18:23
Yes. Excellent. Exactly. Um, that’s fantastic. I’m already sold on the product Yeah.
Shelly Miller 18:32
I didn’t think about the benefits for your salespeople. Yeah, that’s
Shelly Miller 18:35
Yeah. And then public speaking in your business too. So he can speak better Exactly. Now
Mike Miller 18:40
that sales and everything you know so everyone usually thinks that NLP is all about hypnotizing people and getting them to do persuade them and do things against their will outrageous
Martin Messier 18:58
Yeah, that’s just I mean when you when you mistake NLP with hypnosis is because you’re using those models that were that were distilled from hypnotherapy and hypnosis and and bring those in all kinds of contexts. But, you know, NLP just goes into hypnotherapy distills the model leaves hypnotherapy. So yeah, that’s hypnosis, not NLP, guys.
Mike Miller 19:19
Right. Right. Exactly. Nice. So, um,
Mike Miller 19:25
and we kind of talked, talked about the results that we got. But I wanted to make the distinction because James Clear, great author has a book called Atomic Habits. And he talks about it’s really, really it’s compounded interest, you know, compounding interest, like every day get 1% better is Kaizen as well. You know, it’s like just small, incremental improvements. So, that’s like when we took your course we thought this is our work to make small incremental improvements. But we didn’t make small incremental improvements, we jumped forward by leaps and bounds. So, I mean, you can add what you want in there to that, but the thing is, is we saw it in action. And that’s never actually, you know, we’ve been studying NLP for 20 years to and we’ve never actually experienced what we’ve experienced with with you and your course. So, you know, moving from small incremental improvements to mastery is an incredible feat,
Shelly Miller 20:38
it is
Mike Miller 20:38
you know, so it’s like, we
Shelly Miller 20:41
got a lot more than that 1% that we were shooting for?
Mike Miller 20:45
Yes. So,
Martin Messier 20:46
go see, the thing with this is that and that’s the beauty of NLP is that if you began, if your point of reference for developing your performance is someone who’s outstanding, then there’s absolutely no doubt that when you bring in that that regimen, what I call, keep the water on the stove, which is that consistent action every day, and your your, your model, your baseline is one of the best in the world, you’re going to uplevel at a tremendous rate. Whereas if, if you’re just going from courses, you’re going to try and derive practice from it. But it’s, it’s really the problem is having to think, and with modeling, the beauty is there’s no thinking and thinking is always the problem. People are trying to figure out how do I do this? And what I hope is that in the program that you guys went through is that you weren’t thinking at any point. It’s just do it and then all of a sudden, you know that the bubbles start showing up. And that’s when the performance really happens.
Shelly Miller 21:56
Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well said,
Mike Miller 21:58
it was, because there was a lot of times where I was like, I don’t even know if this is working. I don’t know what I’m doing. You know, I don’t, I’m not thinking, and I’m just going at it. And, and I like how you guided me, and everyone in the class. It was like, you know, keep going, you’re doing it right, keep going,
Martin Messier 22:21
when that’s the problem, because the modeling protocol is so simple, right? But the thing is, until you experience it, you’re constantly wondering, am I doing it correctly, there’s nothing happening, you know, what’s going on and, and unless you have a guide with you who’s been through it, that just just keep going keep plowing through and then you’re gonna see what happens is that analogy is that when you put the water on the stove at the beginning, nothing’s happening. So it’s heating up, but nothing’s happening. So you keep it on the stove, and then the bubbles start forming. And that’s when the magic really happens. And as you guys saw, I mean, as you progress, you just ramped up and up and up and up. So it’s, that’s really it.
Shelly Miller 23:03
Well, that’s exactly what happened.
Mike Miller 23:06
And really, thank you so much for sharing this with all of us. And I don’t know how I was lucky enough to, to come across your course. And you know, well, I’ve been following you for a couple years. But when you had this course, I was like, I’ve got to jump in on this. And I’m so glad I did because it really changed our lives. It did we do this for a living. So I you know,
Shelly Miller 23:30
well, the thing is, is I remember because I thought it was pretty impressive. Um, Michael, he is an avid reader. I mean, I think I read a lot. But Michael really read a lot. And he read me your email. And he said, I have to read this email to you. I want to buy this product, you know, but I bet you if I read this email to you, you’re gonna want to do it too. Yeah. Yeah, so he and he said, I know it’s another NLP product. But let me read you the email. And I immediately you could just tell it was bumped up quite a few notches from the NLP advertisements that we get for courses or, you know, training or you know, whatever a video and I knew immediately, I why he wanted to buy the product. It was, you could tell it was just it had something extra. So I’m so glad he found that and bought it.
Mike Miller 24:27
Exactly I am to, and to well, Martin, I really appreciate your time. And, you know, I know your time is busy. So I don’t want to keep you forever, but you know, we could. But tell us a little about you know, where people can find out more about you what your courses you have, where they can find you and
Martin Messier 24:50
sure my home on the virtual in cyberspace is dailynlp.com. So you can just visit my website, I’m running the front page. If you want to get on my newsletter where you get all of these, these, these emails like the one that Mike and Shelly just referred to, you can hop onto my email list. And there’s also I’ve, in the menu, you’ll find my training products, my main training products, which is Metamodel Mastery, action based belief change and modeling. So if you’re interested in any of these, you’re available available there as well. But make sure if you get on my list get on my radar and you’re you’re part of Mike and Shelly’s community. Just send me an email, give me a send me a shout. And I’ll I’ll treat a treat you guys with with VIP care.
Mike Miller 25:34
Right? Absolutely. I know he will. It’s one of the best decisions we’ve ever made.
Shelly Miller 25:40
Definitely. It is we enjoy. Thank you
Martin Messier 25:42
so much, guys.
Mike Miller 25:43
Thank you. Thank you, Martin. It’s been a pleasure. And thanks for doing this.
Martin Messier 25:48
Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, great day.
Mike Miller 25:52
Thanks. So as always, guys, we’ll see you next Thursday.
Shelly Miller 25:56
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